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Oct 08, 2023

Russian jet fires missile ‘near’ British aircraft

Wallace told parliament Britain had previously suspended patrols following the incident and expressed concerns to Russia’s Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu. Russia, astonishingly, said it was a

Wallace told parliament Britain had previously suspended patrols following the incident and expressed concerns to Russia’s Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.

Russia, astonishingly, said it was a “technical malfunction”, and Wallace said Britain has now resumed patrols. However, the patrols now have fighter aircraft escorts.

“I would also like to share with the house details of a recent incident which occurred in international airspace over the Black Sea. On the 29th of September, an unarmed RAF RC 135 Rivet Joint ISTAR aircraft on routine patrol over the Black Sea was interacted with by two Russian armed Su-27 fighter aircraft.

It is not unusual for aircraft to be shadowed, and this day was no different. During that interaction, however, it transpired that one of the Su-27 aircraft released a missile in the vicinity of the RAF Rivet Joint beyond visual range, the total time of the interaction between the Russian aircraft and the rivet joint was approximately 90 minutes, the patrol completed, and the aircraft returned to its base.

In light of this potentially dangerous engagement. I’ve communicated my concerns directly to my Russian counterpart, Defence Minister Shoigu and the Chief of Defence Staff in Moscow, and has done so my colleague, the Chief of Defence Staff, has also communicated his concerns. In my letter, I made clear that the aircraft was unarmed in international airspace and following a pre-notified flight path. I felt it was prudent to suspend these patrols until a response was received by the Russian state.

The reply by the Russian Ministry of Defence on the 10th of October stated that they have conducted an investigation into the circumstances of the incident and say it was a technical malfunction of the Su-27 fighter. They also acknowledged that the incident took place in international airspace.

The Ministry of Defence has shared this information with allies, and after consultation, I have restarted routine patrols, but this time escorted by fighter aircraft. Everything we do is considered and calibrated with regard to the ongoing conflict in the region and in accordance with international law. We welcome Russia’s acknowledgement this was international airspace, and the UK has conducted regular sorties of the RAF Rivet Joint in international airspace over the Black Sea since 2019. And we will continue to do so. For security reasons, I will not provide further commentary on the detail of these operations. But I want to assure the House that this incident will not prevent the United Kingdom’s support for Ukraine and resistance to Russia’s illegal invasion. The UK government’s position remains unchanged.”

We now know why the Royal Air Force, earlier this week, provided one of its RC-135 surveillance aircraft an escort of two Typhoons over the Black Sea as the type monitored Russian forces in occupied Ukraine.

Typhoons escort British surveillance aircraft over Black Sea

According to the Royal Air Force website, the RC-135W Rivet Joint is a dedicated electronic surveillance aircraft that can be employed in all theatres on strategic and tactical missions. Its sensors ‘soak up’ electronic emissions from communications, radar and other systems.

“RC-135W Rivet Joint employs multidiscipline Weapons System Officer (WSO) and Weapons System Operator (WSOp) specialists whose mission is to survey elements of the electromagnetic spectrum in order to derive intelligence for commanders.”

The Royal Air Force say that Rivet Joint has been deployed extensively for Operation Shader and on other operational taskings. It had been formally named Airseeker, but is almost universally known in service as the RC-135W Rivet Joint.

The UK operates three of these aircraft.

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Russia, astonishingly, said it was a “technical malfunction”…

….these days the Kremlin’s BS is not so astonishing but rather par for the course. I do wonder sometimes whether they actually ever believe their own lies or that they are just so used to uttering them that no one really notices/cares.

I think its significant that they blame it on a technical malfunction rather than a warning shot, that implies they were seeking to deescalate rather than willing to claim credit and intimidate.

True; does suggest they are rather keen to avoid a direct confrontation with NATO (understandably, given their weakened condition).

Also wondering about the word ‘released’ – does that mean the missile was actually fired or just jettisoned? If the latter then a technical malfunction isn’t actually too implausible (especially given the number of accidents/crashes of Russian air force jets recently).

I don’t believe this was a malfunction. There are too many safety steps to overcome to get the missile off the rail or by activating the ram ejectors for semi-recessed missiles. With some air to air missiles, you can jettison them. The command unlocks it from the rail and activates the rocket. It does not activate the seeker, the guidance section or the warhead. So it essence it becomes just an unguided rocket. The pilot must actively select the missile either to fire or jettison it. Otherwise there’s no power provided to it to activate it. It could be used… Read more »

One flaw in your argument is that you are attributing the same safeguards being applied by the Russians to their missile carriage as the West. I can see a poorly trained ground crewman failing to latch a missile in place and the darned thing just falling off.

Or that the missile was rendered useless by the EW system on the 135?

They would look a bit stupid if RAF released a video the ‘warning missile’ going berserk and then exploding…..

Actually, I’ll rephrase that they would look even more stupid and ineffectual than usual.

They know if NATO get sucked into an air war that Ukraine would do whatever they want.

Could they have been looking to gather I intelligence on the EW and other defensive aids on the 135?

That is the clear implication.

Or perhaps they are setting the scene for the next interaction where the malfunction shoots the rivet joint down and they apologise.

With a two Typhoon escort, both presumably armed with the latest ASRAAMs and Meteors, the RC-135 won’t be easy prey.

Yes just means that we have to A find enough typhoons to escort and B will reduce the scope and range of rivet joint flights to areas where escorts can be provided.

Just shows the Orcs are not Orcs at all, just a bunch of rag tag cowboys.

One theory is that they have so many factions below the Kremlin that are either not talking to each other because of fear / polictics or lying to each other, to a point that the official view is not aligned with reality of what is going on, because it just doesn’t know the truth. The other theory is they are just so used to lying to the media that it’s now second nature, as they have had to keep the truth away from the normal Russians who might have rebelled at poor living standards whilst the rulers raked in the… Read more »

I concur with these comments, Russia is upping the anti. They are trying NATO especially the UK. My concerns are that they consistantly lie and expect the west to accept their lies. Put the boot on the other foot and a bet that Putin and his cronies wouldn’t be so understanding!!

And a two cables break is very unusual…. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-63326102

Internet cables are having a tough time of it at the moment. I love the line “We expect it will be fishing vessels that damaged the cable but it is very rare that we have two problems at the same time.” Like anyone believes that BS. I only hope the UK can repay in kind.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/france-paris-internet-cable-cuts-attack.

A few months ago now, but nobody claimed responsibility for this.

How is any country ever going to trust Russia again?

Most of Russias cables go across land. Its a huge country. I think this is a serious escalation and must act as a wake up call to the incompetent Tory government. Most other NATO countries have announced significant escalation and reinforcement of their military capabilities. The UK meanwhile has done precious little to prepare for an almost inevitable hot war with Russia. Its not like there is a mad psychopathic tin pot dictator in charge of a nuclear armed country that is attacking a democratic country in our own continent or anything. Instead of ballsing ip our economy and going… Read more »

This incompetent torie govt has done rather well in supporting Ukraine in weapons and intelligence don’t you think? However you do make some interesting points.

I’d tend to suggest that Wallace has been 100% on this and that the UK turned out to have most of the right kit.

Wallace ruled himself out of the running for PM and is doing an excellent job at Defence. But Penny Maudant has thrown her hat in the ring. IMO, notwithstanding ‘the economy’ the most serious issues facing this country are China and the fact that we are de-facto in a state of war with Russia. For this reason I would like to see Maudant as PM.

Mordant hadn’t got what it takes to be PM.

Sunak isn’t really a PM and his economic policies don’t make a lot of sense. Unfortunately he hasn’t smelt the coffee wrt defence spending and it just isn’t a priority for him. The only ray of hope there is for the present chancellor to stay in post.

Actually I disagree about Mordaunt. She handled herself well at the handover of power to Charles and at the dispatch box when standing in for Truss. She is well proven in dealing with difficult personal tragedy and has naval service experience. She also thinks before opening her mouth. Hunt has ruled himself out of the race for PM and as you say will provide some stability as chancellor. i agree, I just don’t see Sunak as a strong enough leader in foreign policy and defence. But he has been proven right with his economic projections. Mordaunt as PM, Hunt as… Read more »

I wanted Mordaunt in the first place, as did some others here.

I’m a Mordaunt fan, but because of this comical charade over the last few months I fear the Conservatives have rather stuffed themselves. I’d be surprised if we see them back in power after this term for the next 2 or 3 terms which probably means I’ll never see a Conservative government in my lifetime. However, the thought of the cast from the Whitches of Eastwick sitting in power fills me with dread.

Bring back boris. Best of a bad lot. Who ever is the Tory leader is doomed from the start. It’s like 3 political parties in one. They can never agree on leadership. Longest one I think is thatcher then Cameron. Without the falklands the party would turned on her much sooner. Cameron only lasted so long due to being in a coalition for 5 years then brexit vote.

Borris is being formally investigated for misleading parliament, the simple fact is if he was made prime minister and he was found guilty he would immediately need to resign so effectively he would be a dead prime minister walking until that was resolved.

Yes was a bit of a joke. She’s has resigned. Shortest PM ever at 45 days. They need to pick a leader and immediately call a general election. 4 PMs have been picked by a party now. The leadership contest seems to be about what appeals most to those members 1st and what’s good for the country 2nd. Or at least set out a timeline of a few months in post and a election after that.

Ironic isn’t it, they criticise Boris for misleading, Truss is “a mess” in leading and the rest of them “miss-in-leading” altogether, save a few maybe.

Better the devil you know. At least with boris most knew what he’s like. Who would of thought we would look upon the may and Cameron days a high point in politics in the last 10 years🙈😂😂😂

I’m sticking with my original caricature of Little Miss Dotty.

you have my vote MS. Best suggestion I’ve seen to date. I’d urge keeping Jeremy Hunt as Exchequer.

Hi DM. Whatever the outcome, I hope they let Jeremy Hunt get on with the Exchequer role. He seems component and stability would not go amiss here.

Riveting (no pun intended to the RC135) TV on BBC World though, like an episode of the UK series of “House of cards”

Morning Klonkie and Daniele. My take on a new PM. Penny Mordaunt is a good perfomer in the House-seems measured and relatively unflappable. Also as a serving RNR officer this in itself is a big plus. Ben Wallace would make a great PM but we need him in Defence. Don’t like Rishi Sunak even though he seems a capable administrator but his “Et tu Brute” part in the demise of Boris and his huge personal wealth won’t go down with many. That leaves Boris-flamboyant, charismatic, forceful and his sins were relatively trivial BUT……! Here back in SA a couple of… Read more »

https://defenceweb.co.za Hoefyster’s future in hands of Control Board-Ajax saga repeated south of the equator

Hey Geoff – how are you, been a while . Yes, I am liking your Penny Mordaunt endorsement . Your Shakespearian analogy is spot on, It just keeps writing itself.

Aah good old Project Hoefyster, the grift that keeps giving (should that be nightmare!).

On a plus note, I was pleased to see the SAAF managed to get a Grippen back in the air! Baby steps. Enjoy the Durbs sunshine.

Hi Klonkie. All good my friend. Doing the middle distance Amashova Cycle race tomorrow 65km. Getting a bit old for this stuff!😉 The next week will be interesting in UK politics!! Cheers from wet Durban

Good luck and well done Geoff . 65km is a cracking effort.

Morning mate.

Hey DM, enjoy the weekend squire!

Morning Daniele-as below

Morning geoff!

Yep!!!

Paul, I suggest we see how well Penny Mordaunt can run a big Govt department before giving her the PM job. No doubt good at the despatch-box, but currently inexperienced, unproven – and with some rather mixed views on her ability.

Well, that’s a valid point. But I’ve a feeling in my water that the key skills and attributes the country needs are a strong, earned sense of self esteem, people ( cabinet ) management, the ability to adapt to circumstances and those instinctive survival traits which go with being a woman. She will have loads of technical expertise at her disposal; I believe she has the ability to discern who is giving her sound advice and who has their head up their a@se.

But those are just assertions Paul, not currently backed up by evidence. Ms Mordaunt has not had a big job in politics (we can’t count 84 days at the MoD), she’s never been tested. Indeed, in previous junior ministerial roles, some thought she wasn’t very good! You might be correct. But there is no evidence that she can govern, has a clear sense of strategic direction – or can get things done. Before we give her the biggest job in politics, why not try her out at the Home Office, or in the NHS, or at the Treasury?

Morning Alan, point taken re her high level experience ( actually there have been comments accusing her of being a slacker while she was at defence). And I acknowledge that my arguments are assertions; but they are based on observations and credible inferences. What I observe is that she exhibits grace under pressure and that she is well liked by colleagues who have had dealings with her. If you read up on her personal history you find a person who has been moulded by tragedy and come through wiser, more aware of her limitations yet more resilient and more compassionate.… Read more »

Has Liz Truss not just torpedoed that ‘women’s instinctive skills’ argument?

Interesting point. The thing is that Liz made the mistake of adopting extreme right wing uber competitive male values and ditching female protective, nurturing values. The markets could see that every other country was thinking frugal was the way to go. If you are in a storm you reef in, you don’t pile on the sail.

She ran Defence, that’s a big Department.

👍

For 84 days in 2019, Graham.

Certainly it was a short period but experience is still gained in a short time. Not sure why some claim she is inexperienced. She has been an MP 5 years longer than Rishi Sunak. She became a PUS after just 4 years. She was first appointed as a Minister after just 1 more year (under Cameron). She was a Minister under Theresa May. She ran DFID as a Cabinet Minister from 2017 (huge budget of £15bn). Has served as a Minister with 3 other Portfolios. She was Paymaster General. Her experience is more wide ranging than Rishi Sunak’s, which has… Read more »

Alan. I’m pleased to see you post. 👍

Many thanks, Daniele. I’m still here!

Agree with that.

Penny Mordaunt has impressive values, but has not held one of the great offices of state yet.

We need experience and steady hands, not a roll of the die.

Too much a BSer for me, but Sunak as Home Secretary might be acceptable to the Tory Party, and adding some analytical ability to the job would be a refreshing change. I’d prefer a liberal HS to counteract the Patel legacy, but never gonna happen under the Tories.

But an inclusive BSer 🙂 The country has some deep rooted problems. Huge numbers of school leavers without the 3Rs. Unaffordable child care while families need 2 salaries. GPs have become as rare as hens teeth. Top tier UK research scientists leaving the UK for international teams. Immigration policy focussed on ‘the brightest and best but no Europeans need apply. Brightest and best EU nurses and fruit pickers vanished. Never ending stream of failing maternity NHS trusts. Hopelessly wasteful pf energy housing stock. Still dependent on importing 50% of our food. A political system in which our PM is elected… Read more »

The big elephant in the room of how brexit has had a bad effect on the NHS, sciences, international projects etc etc. If anyone knows what the good points were please let us know. I don’t want to re run it but we need a happy medium in some parts.

GB has been formed from England and Scotland over 1000 years of invasions. Our corporate psyche is dependent on a national myth of triumph over European invaders; the Armada, Napoleon, Hitler. The truth is that the Saxon England of the Wessex Kings was airbrushed from history after the Norman invasion of 1066 – we lost! Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe tells the truth about English bitterness – the Normans did not conquer Scotland, where ironically Margaret of Wessex took English culture for safe keeping when she married Malcolm, and became Saint Margaret of Scotland for her efforts in civilising the Scottish Court.… Read more »

Hi Paul. Just a comment-Saxon England, one of many Englands (and still evolving) since, is not the same England that did the Armada, Agincourt, Napoleon, Hitler etc.. I think we should be careful in claiming that Scots believe this or English do that. There is no such thing as a static race nor country in which everyone is the same. The truth is that peoples,races, nations are constantly in change and in which no two individuals think the same

..in change and entities in which no two.. Edit not working

Morning Geoff, I agree its complicated. Personally I think it helps to draw clear distinctions between 3 key concepts; a people, a country and a nation. A people is the root identity and is defined by things like language, music, literature, and religion. So for example there are Russian people living in Ukraine; they speak Russian and worship in Russian Orthodox churches. I don’t know if they do Cossack dances or drink vodka but you get the idea – culturally, emotionally, they are Russian. But they live in a land ( a country ) with shifting borders and under the… Read more »

Thanks for your reply Paul. I continue to be bewildered and angered by those who use ENGLISH and BRITISH as though they mean the same thing. In particular our American friends who constantly talk of England’s Queen Elizabeth or England leaving the EU. Another favourite bugbear is the fact that there is no English Parliament and that Westminster has to act as an ad hoc English house along with its main role as the British Parliament-an absurd situation. Also I do not think that an English Irish Scots or Welsh identity should be any barrier to being British as well.… Read more »

A nation is a jurisdiction which sets laws and looks after defence and foreign policy. So GB is a nation as is UK since 1921. It’s instructive to look back into history to try to find the original birth of ‘national’ identity, that point in time when, in response to adversity or an external threat a community unified into a people and define themselves by that event. The US came into being and still defines itself by the Boston Tea party, the war of independence and myths like turkey on Thanksgiving Day, Paul Revere etc. But immigrants since then were… Read more »

Thanks for the history, fascinating stuff. If it’s over 100 years my knowledge is toddler level. They better not sell the NHS. Staffing is a big issue just now. An organisation of that size in the role it does is going to have issues Ideal scenario would be a 2 level EU. One for economic, trade, free movement (with perhaps limits on employment, benefits etc) shared standards. The other for all the above stuff and closer political ties, integration, defence forces and other stuff the eu want.

The history is rather rose tinted. Idea that the Scottish court was some last bastion of Anglo-Saxon culture is tenuous considering David I lived in England as Earl of Huntingdon and subsequently invited many Norman families North to Scotland (who played a large part in establishing the medieval Scottish court). Hence Robert the Bruce’s French origin in his name. Norman’s may not have directly conquered Scotland but came to be that South-East Scotland was heavily Anglo-Norman.

You are welcome. Personally I think we should consider the Italian NHS model. It looks to me like what we need. i’m hoping that Macron‘s initiative will lead to a sort of 2 tier EU. We and the EU need the UK to be included in the kind of areas you mention.

Whoever becomes PM will almost certainly replace Hunt as Chancellor. He got that job as a political ploy to try and appease Sunak supporters, not because he knows anything about politics.

Sunak was 100% accurate in predicting what would happen if Truss followed through on her economic agenda. He clearly has more clue on economics than even MP and member who voted for Truss.

Whist Truss had no clue and Kwasi had no feel for the markets. I wouldn’t overestimate Sunak’s economic nous. The only useful thing he did was to introduce the super deduction. Other than that it was Brownian motion – motion of money from your pocket to an ever larger state. NHS is a super hot potatoe but the sooner we face up to the fact that the attitudes of the nurses, medics and management are at the root of the problem the sooner it will be on the mend. Believe me when I say that the Kent babies scandal is… Read more »

Sorry to hear about that experience and your little boy

I agree I’m just not seeing anyone in the conservative parliamentary party apart from hunt who could be a credible PM, but the party are never going to go for him.

Sunak’s the only one who’s policies do make sense , the only adult in the room , as the rest have found out the hard way. The whole cut tax borrow more , massively increase defence spending was economic fairy tales. It’s ok having a tax cutting ideology but have u have also to face the reality of spending on covid and an ongoing war in Europe, Sunak saw this the rest well it’s like putting children in charge of the sweet shop.

I do have time for Wallace though, mordant not sure, her economic vision was a bit to close to truss for not liking.

Trouble is we do have a war on at the edge of Europe and likely the Iranians stirring the pot with the Chinese looking to do something.

If this wasn’t a dress rehearsal for Taiwan I don’t know what was….

Wallace has been on the top of his game, and has played the whole Tory leadership election well! He seems to be genuinely concerned in regard to defence, sensible and mature, who seems to be liked….therefore he is a threat and will need some made up bad news stories leaked to the press by jealous Tory “colleagues”!!!

He is too focused to play silly games.

I think he is, in a professional sense, getting satisfaction from the challenge.

I believe in him.

I’m pretty sure any attempts to do him down would be met by a wall of protest from parliament as a whole.

Zelenski was lucky the Wallace was in post when Doris was sent to the back benches.

Amazing how fast a clown seems like a statesman….

He is a good defence minister and hopefully he stays there. The leader role is a nightmare and what clown would take over defence if he wasn’t there would be my worry.

My vote would be for Julian Lewis, if he’d take the job, but Wallace is playing a blinder and I’d agree that him staying is best for the country.

I’d suggest Russias ability to pose a military threat to the UK or NATO is rapidly approaching zero. If not already there it soon will be.

But China’s isn’t.

And that will be the new axis of troublemakers.

Agreed but China is a whole new debate to be had. Russia is nothing apart from it’s nukes and even in the worst case scenario won’t pose any threat for 10 to 20 years if ever.

The bigger issue is what happens to the nuclear weapons if/when Russia fragments?

Ukraine did the right thing with theirs, though they may regret it, but others naught not.

I’d hope/expect the professionals in charge of the nukes to behave accordingly. At least we’ve been here before with the USSR.

But why try to disconnect RAF Saxa Vord?

What are the Orcs worried it might see?

You have to remember that on the site these days, as well as the radar, is the new Spaceport and a distillery. It’s obviously the distillery Putin was targetting. The swine!

That is a good point.

Perhaps he assumes that as the Russian army marches on the bottle – if he stops the Scottish regiments having their wee nip, then it is all over bar the shouting?

Where did you read that RAF Saxa Vord was affected by the cable damage ?

I didn’t but it is in the area…..

I suspect BT bought bandwidth on the existing fibre link when Saxa Vord was shut down in 2006.

All speculation but quite likely that existing infrastructure of value would be repurposed.

The problem Mr Steeper is this and I will give you an example. Take Tempest an aircraft to go into service 2030s we hope. If the Chinese were doing it, putting aside technology issues, it would be completed in 2 to 5 years. Likewise the Russians, win or lose will rebuild their army within 2 to 3 years and learnt from their mistakes. Come 2026 the Bear will have its sharpened teeth and claws back. The threat will be back. Worse still I can see Putin gone and Wagner in charge. That’s guaranteed war !So I would keep the champagne… Read more »

So western economic sanctions will be reversed. As will the institutionalised corruption. Total binning of Russian military doctrine,training and organisation. All to take effect within 5 years. Yeah we’ll agree to disagree.

The Tory party is fragmented. It has been under the spell of a small strong- minded cabal of adherents to extreme libertarian theories which owe their origin to the ‘rational self interest’ views of Adam Smith, the Father of Capitalism. Their mindset is very fixed and their influence, divisive. Their inflexibility of mind is a problem. As my grandmother used to say, if you don’t bend, you break; as Ms Truss has discovered.

Stop panicking, a hot war with Russia is not “almost inevitable”.

But not unlikely.

Wrong, it’s most improbable.

Putin doesn’t want a war with NATO, and NATO doesn’t want one with him. Even if there was an accident due to the fog of war, such as a lone Russian cruise missile overflying its target and landing in Poland you wouldn’t see it.

So you can stop your Mad Max style prepping 😉

i wish I thought you were right, but wants have very little to do with which wars escalate, so what NATO or Putin individually may want is actually irrelevant, as they are likely mutually exclusive and the geopolitical fault will rub along until something happens. As an example no power wanted the First World War but they still got it, Hitler was not very keen on war with the British empire and quite frankly the British establishment had little interest in going to war with the third Reich but it still happened. War has literally nothing to do with individual… Read more »

Hitler didn’t want war with Britain, but he wanted Poland more, so he accepted it as the price to be paid for gaining Poland. The analogy between Hitler and Putin fails, because Putin knows that his conventional forces will be defeated very quickly by NATO. Hitler believed he could defeat Britain and France. Putin controls the media in Russia, so his forces could be wiped out in Ukraine, and he could still dress it up as some kind of victory. And the Russian people are so fearful of him it doesn’t matter anyway if they known the truth. Of course,… Read more »

the thing is it’s not just about conventional forces it’s about Putins belief in the political will of western nations to fight a war with a major nuclear power and he may very well make the wrong judgment Bet it all on red, because in the end he may be right about the west or he may get it very wrong. In reality Hitler did not actually think the U.K. would declare war over Poland, he was willing to bet he would be either able to manage the U.K. and France or they would stay out of the war, he… Read more »

RAF Saxa Vord?

Mind you if it was fishing vessels they would know from the location of the break and AIS?

The cable will self report exactly where it is damaged in real time..

That is some serious back pedalling by ivan. They real, real dont want to have NATO involved in anyway whatsoever do they.

Probably they know they will lose given how potent our weapon systems are and how ineffectual their military is. We simply have over 30 years of almost constant warfare (or being in action) and perfecting our equipment through experience gained. Russia hasn’t as they do not cross train and corruption has decimated their armed forces.

So are we looking at pilot deciding on his own I’m firing a missile? He should be in a bucket load of brown stuff if he/she did. Or has the call came from high up to fire. It says BVR shot so either the plane shot it off without having a lock (I’m assuming it’s the radar guided missile, can’t remember the number? R27 maybe?) or he broke the lock so it would miss? Or do the missile have a self destruct after firing which I would think would be risky if it didn’t work.

Well, they just got a really big message today, when a US SSBN surfaced in the Arabian sea whilst on patrol. Apparently they had a visit from a US general! Most unusual, very definitely sending Mad Vlad a serious note!.

I don’t know why, but I assumed Marine when you said General, but it’s an army General. Heads US Central Command with a very impressive resume, including 5 Bronze Stars and 2 Purple Hearts. One of the Bronze Stars was from Mosul where he “was shot three times but continued to fire back at insurgents while directing his troops.” Well, it impresses me.

A nice double message to Russia and Iran. I’m hoping the U.K. SSBNs get back up to 16 missiles soon. While 8 may have been ok with multiple warheads in the past just now we need the full compliment. I’m not sure Iran fully understands the implications of it suppling Russia with drones and other weapons that are being used to attack civilian infrastructure targets. Or it does and is getting some juicy help and promises From Russia to make it worth it

Shoot any bastard down who comes close. These sub human scum only understand strength.

So we would be shooting down Russia’s aircraft in international airspace….after they came out to escort our spy plane.

Right…..🙄

Rather, I suspect the provision of two Typhoon as escort is a more sensible solution!

Daniele WR you are a wimp lol. If we had sunk the Russian fleet in the Channel – as I suggested six months ago – none of this would have happpend!

If we simply nuked Moscow, this whole mess could have been avoided

Steady on olld chap, let’s not get too gung ho

Exactly! Shoot first and wish we had peace and were alive later on. Who needs balance, tact, level headedness and firm resolve to NOT be provoked when we can go all Clint Eastwood ( my fav actor btw but this is real life not Hollywood )

Shoot first and die second, but at least we would have won for a few mins.

Nuke Moscow & we will be international pariahs, for any surviving the resulting MAD.

I would’ve prefered we had not said back in February we definately would not send troops if Russia invaded(again). That practically gave Putin a green light. Now we’re defending Ukraine to the last drop of Ukrainuian blood. I know many disagree, but I think it may have prevented mant Ukrainian & Russian deaths etc.

We need to be clear & resolute that any escalation will be met like for like, otherwise we permit aggresion & the owrld becomes very dangerous.

I suspect Levi was being sarcastic Frank….

Frank is not wrong, but a US heavy armoured division ditto UK brigade some Polish units, a Sq of UK typhoon and a US air wing sent to Ukraine in early February 22 ” on exercise” the shooting match would not have started. Putin would have cemented his position in the Kremlin by saying look at the threat NATO poses, you need a strong authoritive leader like me in charge. I not totally convinced he wanted to actually invade but the weak woke liberal West gave him no reason to march his troops back down the hill. Putin is no… Read more »

“but the weak woke liberal West gave him no reason to march his troops back down the hill”

“The weak woke liberal west” as you say sure seems to be giving the ultra masculine, bigoted, Russia a beating without trying very hard to be honest.

Nope I totally agree. We should of at least went in to the western half of Ukraine. Call it a peace keeping mission. It hopefully would of kept the peace as Russia may not of went full invasion. Even if it was just the U.K., Poland, Baltic’s and who ever else wanted to come.

That was firmly tongue in cheek

I thought of you when I replied to Mark LOL!

Exactly, lets just enjoy ourselves and get it all over with!

🙄

An unprovoked act of aggressive?

How original.

I thought this was about stopping that kind of behaviour?

I’d call the release of a weapon just cause to carry out defensive action. If not we might as well scrap the whole typhoon fleet and accept we’ll be bullied without the bottle to stand up for ourselves.

Please! Disband the Typhoons. 😁 But we weren’t bullied, were we? The Rivet is still there. The Soviet Union shot down KAL 007, when a Rivet was in the area. They shot at another KAL flight forcing it to land on a lake in the Kola. Lots of other shoot downs. Here? They hide behind “malfunction” Because they know what happens if their crap goes up against NATO. Release of a weapon? Yes, if it was locked and aimed at our assets. This was, by my reading, OTH in the other direction! That’s not bullying, it’s making an even greater… Read more »

I would love to know what the ROE are for these sorts of things but I’m guessing we will never know.

If the Orcs push the envelope a little more, everyone may learn the ROE simultaneously.

Ummmmm yes that would end well. They are actually allowed to be there.

And this is why the other day a Rivet Joint was escorted by x 2 Typhoons! Russkie dross are a danger to themselves but more importantly to every right minded person on the planet!

Presume this will remain the SOP for recon packages in Black Sea arena for indefinite future. Replicated in Baltic and far north? Probably.

More than likely mate 👍

My 2 bobs worth every time Russia pulls a stunt like this we should release a significant quantity of weapons to ukraine, when they poisoned the skripals we should have given ukraine NLaw, now we should provide them with a couple of rapier fsc batteries, and make it known next more m270 launchers

Agree. Or better atill next time there is a Russian escalation we will donate 18 challenger 2s to Ukraine. The Ruskies really dont want to have to face those on the battlefield.

Or start to train the remaining Ukraine pilots on tranche1 typhoon with a view to donation or sale when they are trained, I don’t know if tranche1 can use the NASAm missile or if it could be upgraded

That was my thoughts on the typhoon training 6 months ago, give them the tranche 1 and start production of 48 new models either for Ukraine or for RAF and pass the used RAF jets to Ukraine. U.K. pays for it but most of the money spent stays in the U.K. Also it lets the other typhoon operators help out if they want. Either get more hawks or M346 if available and needed. Now that we actually know the dire state of U.K. aircraft training it probably would not of worked out so well. Would really depend how many pilots… Read more »

Better still Mr B give the Russians Ajax.

😂😂

Love that one!

Seems clear to me that the RC135s are delivering precise and vital intelligence on Russian forces positions, disposition and intent. The Russians know this and want to stop these patrols thinking they can intimidate a NATO member. Er no. Wont work. Now if they want to try to scare off an RC135 they will have to contend with a far superior Typhoon escort. SU27 vs Typhoon. Typhoon wins on 9 out of 10 engagements. Hopefully our typhoons are now armed with Meteor and can safely obliterate a Russian intercept at ranges beyond Russia’s airforce comprehension.

Believe you have assessed the situation correctly. Russians however, appear to be almost desperate enough, based upon current military situation, to signal intent by an attack on NATO forces. If that does not result in reduced pressure on forces, believe. their next step would be in-theater usage of CBRN. Rather hope I’m reading the tea leaves incorrectly…

I never thought the likes of Hitler could happen again, how wrong was I? I’m starting to feel how my parents must of felt in the time leading up to WW2. My dad was already in India then and had been since 35′ . Did the trek across Burma with Ord Wingates Chindits and saw the Japanese surrender Singapore. Later in 52′ in Korea his vehicle hit a mine and he spent 6 months in a US hospital in Tokyo (ironically). Cant help feeling that cycle is coming round again.

Would hope the odds were higher than 9/10, fighters per escort you would expect to lose one every 5th flight?

No I just think this was another case of Russian incompetence 🤷🏻‍♂️

I’m curious to know HOW the Russian Su-27 BVR missile was defeated, or whether there was actual damage to our RC-135W.

Thast was an armed attack on a NATO aircraft engaged on NATO business.

Airborne is currently polishing his boots and Farouk is filling his bergen. It’s going south Ladies and Gentlemen.

My boot polishing drills were always a poor standard anyway and no doubt much worse now 👍

Does your OAP bus pass work on Hercules. 😂😂😂😂

DB wrote:

Farouk is filling his bergen.

Where have you been these past few years don’t you know that cancelling somebody on social media is the future. Allow me to present one such example.

Well it’s sort of true ( in the way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day), if we stopped farming, it would end humanity ( apart from a few hunter gatherers), which would well sort out man made climate change.

That’s right technical malfunction of the Russia pilot brain 🙄

In this discussion we are talking about Tiffie v Sukhoi, surely, the whole Russian AD, including what’s left of their underperforming pants Navy would be involved and a pre-emptive strike on Cyprus can’t be ruled out… it would be all out from the start.

What kit is based at Latakia?

Interesting, concerning, explains the escort of Black sea RJs. BVR & presumably not in our direction shouldn’t be too concerning. Providing an escort is prudent & continuing the flights demonstrates we won’t be intimidated, as Putin continues to try.

Assuming the RC took a good suck at the incoming signals, we now have a good refresh of the Russian radar and missile signature data. Time to click ‘updated 2022’ in the file.

Cables cut around the Scottish Isles today….. who is responsible for this…. How are we going to defend against this ??

We’re getting a ship (two eventually). It will, er, it will…. No, I can’t say I’ve any idea what it will do. But it will be amazing!

Is there any back up system (satellite?) for all these undersea cables and (why) aren’t they being monitored by anyone? Coastal, ports, undersea infrastructure and all sea approaches should be under some sort of regular surveillance. I’d imagine the North Sea oil fields are? Is someone dropping the ball here? Makes you wonder about the security of all these ev charging units popping up. They’re very vulnerable to vandalism too. Hope there’s some backups in place when all our hi-tech stuff goes bing or bung! Happy Friday from 🇦🇺. Can quite believe Truss has resigned… C’mon 🇬🇧, get it together!!… Read more »

“Is there any back up system (satellite?) for all these undersea cables “ Much of the worlds internet, financial and communications data passes through undersea cables, for example London Stock Exchange to Wall St via a location in the SW on England where financial data is exchanged at ridiculously fast speed. Some of course passes via SATCOM as well, and microwave before that, but these are less efficient and more vulnerable. In the UK Defence area much moved to cable as it was more secure than microwave signal against interception, is faster, and as defence against nuclear blast. ( See BOXER… Read more »

Hi Daniele, thank you for your detailed reply. I have absolutely no technical knowledge on any of this but you’d think that a key infrastructure cabling and fibre optics from Scotland to Shetland to the Orkney’s would have some self monitoring and fault detection capability? I don’t mean visual camera’s on everything but key approaches, nodes, terminals etc, surely would be monitored? Agree, that this sort of incident and vulnerability could happen anywhere in our interconnected digital world.

I have no real tech knowledge either, only what I read, so no idea what is what regards monitoring and fault finding. I’m aware of most of the “CLS” Cable Landing Stations which are the landside “nodes” before the system connects to the UK F/O network. The USG listed several of them as “CNI” Critical National Infrastructure damage/disruption to which would cause grave damage to US security. They’re not that hard to find if one looks, and the fact we monitor many of those sites ourselves regards intercept then you’d think systems are in place at those locations to detect… Read more »

I can’t remember the name of it but the Rooskies do have an air-to-air long-range “AWACS killer” missile designed for the purpose. (yes I know this was ELINT not AWACS flight). However, any Rooskie fighter anywhere near one of our aircraft must be treated with great caution and intercepted before they can get into firing range. Unless anybody knows otherwise surely our large aircraft are very vulnerable and the crews at great risk without ejector seats etc.

I would argue we need to reinstate/expand a fleet of AWACS/ELINT smaller aircraft with protection for crews if needed.

The point of three Rivet Joints is they are exactly the same as the USAF aircraft so classed as one fleet, therefore interchangeable. It is a valuable asset to Nato. Our other, Sentinel was dumped because of cost, regardless of what excuses you will read. And three AWACS will never be enough to cover all tasking. Sadly we seem to “play” big league but never fund big league. I just hope we never face a real hot war with a peer.

IIRC it’s called an AWACS killer because they are the only aircraft slow enough to be unable to dodge the missile, it’s that bad.

I do hope you are right, given how important AWACS with a datalink to forward aircraft is.

Off topic, but Larry the cat should be next PM

It’s “flippant Friday” here in 🇦🇺. I’m looking forward to hearing Boris’s “I’m backkkk” speech, aren’t you… Lol 😁

The Russians are playing a dangerous game. If that missile had downed the Rivet we would be entering a new and very dangerous phase of the conflict. Also a point on the new PM debate-those on the opposition benches bleating about the fact that a PM is elected by a tiny number of votes are very confused. The Prime Minister of the UK is not elected in the same way that the President of the USA is. We do not seperate the selection of ruling party and Prime Minister so the popularity or otherwise of the PM has no bearing… Read more »

There is plenty they could emphasise more, for some reason they just let the anti tory media have a field day and Labour a free voice to demand with no responsibility themselves. We have a Parliamentary Democracy, a party that commands a majority can elect a new PM.

Boris should never have been removed. Having said that, he was the architect of his own problems by his cavalier attitude to office.

Our news here have just said Rishi’s the front runner at 57%. Not sure who the Poll was but seems to suggest that Boris or Mourdant don’t have enough party support. Whoever gets the nod hope that Defence still gets good support and a bit of an uplift.

Be honest, it is a sh*t show, has been for ages. Johnson is a grandstanding narcissist. Sunak a billionaire technocrat. There are no true conservatives anymore. We have a gaggle of inadequate Parliamentarians all looking out for number one. As for the opposition? Warmed up Blairites. The only comfort is seeing Sleepy Joe and Harris across the pond. The west is in a sorry state.

I agree with you John. What are the alternatives? Where are the leaders with integrity? Leadership? Talent? Strategic vision that extends further than their career? Are there any amongst that lot on the opposition benches with the hard left waiting in the wings? Any Labour posters here, do point the potentials out to me amongst HM opposition that understand strategic geopolitics. That is why I suggested BJ should have remained, who else is there? I quite like Penny as she seems…normal? I saw an interview with a Charles Walker MP yesterday who talked magnificently and with passion, but he’s just… Read more »

Wallace has just backed Boris to return, no doubt to ensure he gets his budget increase so he may well be back. Crazy times

I would say Rory Stewart would the most talented person for the job but he been forced out of politics unfortunately.

Sadly the alternatives are too radical for many to stomach. I admire Constitutional Republicanism as a model. Without getting hysterical over our history (easy to do ) We are stuck with a system imposed in 1066. I believe the figure for English land ownership is that around 30% is still owned by Norman families. The actual system of governance with an unelected second house is a joke. For me mainly, it is as you rightly say, the quality of the individuals elected is appalling with a few exceptions. As an “older” veteran, I have heard weasel words and promises over… Read more »

Wise words Daniele. And on the subject of our Parliamentary democracy, someone needs to tighten up on the rules. I felt sad for Liz Truss(although I was not a particular fan). The way she was hounded out of office was brutal. In particular the hurtful insults she had to endure at the hands of Keir Starmer’s rabble was a disgrace. The Speaker just sat there and allowed them to drown out any attempt of hers to be heard. The quality of some MP’s is dismal. Even in these changed times a page one requirement surely is to be allowed to… Read more »

The RAF used to use cambera bombers out of Cyprus during the cold war they got shot to hell. The Russians know exactly what the game is, the crew were lucky the missile neas not armed. I was on duty when the Russians took down an American surveiliance plane over Berlin.in.1964.

Lot’s missing from this story!. Did it fall off the pylon?. Was it fired at a third party and the RC was in the vicinity? Was it fired at the RC and her CM did there job?.

No good will come from Russia being aggressive.

On a series last year following one of our Royal Nacy ASW frigates . She was protecting some undersea cables and had locked onto a Russian sub which could not shake her. The sub collided with the Frigate’s towed array sonar rendering it U/S. The navy called it an accident. However I believe such “ accidents “ are happening more frequently.